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Old 04-11-11, 05:50PM   #16
Stan Weiss
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Jim,

How can it be down torque and up HP in the same range? Or do I not understand what you are saying.

Stan
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Old 04-11-11, 07:10PM   #17
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Originally Posted by 1qikta View Post
I'm right here.
Have you been racing? is the F.A.S.T. class running yet? its always impressed me what those car can do with the limits placed on them....Make alot of big tire cars look silly...lol
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Old 04-11-11, 11:50PM   #18
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Have you been racing? is the F.A.S.T. class running yet? its always impressed me what those car can do with the limits placed on them....Make alot of big tire cars look silly...lol
I did not race the TA last year at all. Still recovering from a MAJOR engine setback last June. The new 2011 FAST season starts memorial day weekend at Lebanon Valley NY.

Last year, the big event was the last one in maryland. The stars aligned with perfect air and big horsepower. Many guys improved their "bests" as much as two tenths. We even had two cars break into the 9's at almost 140 mph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UcYp3yHw_g
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Old 04-12-11, 12:26AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan Weiss View Post
Jim,

How can it be down torque and up HP in the same range? Or do I not understand what you are saying.

Stan
Peak Torque can be down and peak HP can be up.
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Old 04-12-11, 08:01AM   #20
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"Cliff,

Two things, then I'll leave it alone.

First, 4-5 lbs. of torque loss over 4,000 RPM in an engine making over 650 (at the flywheel) could hardly be considered "killed". In fact, it was in a car that couldn't handle 75% of the torque it already had. And you forgot to mention, in that same "range", it was "up" about the same number of HP is was "down" on torque. This is a hazard of racing dynoes instead of cars.

Second: WHO did you hear "our" side of the story from? It wasn't me! And I'm the ONLY ONE authorized to speak for CVMS. Any attempt to gloss over this question, evade it or divert away is a clear indication of a falsehood on your part. You often make "claims" and no one challenges you. This time, I AM CHALLENGING YOU! Who and WHEN?"

I make claims Jim because I own a car that runs the numbers, and test scores of different parts on my engine, in my engine, drivetrain, tires, etc, etc. It is difficult to argue with facts, but I still get some folks busting my balls on occassion, in almost all cases these folks don't even have a car that moves, or haven't had one that moves in years.

Jim, pretty hard for you to "challenge" me when it comes to this topic. We both know you haven't had a Pontiac powered car that moves since the early 1970's. I dyno all the engines that we build here, and back up those number with dragstrip runs, hundreds and hundreds of them.

When is the last time that you took your car to a track and back to back tested a carburetor? Intake manifold? Camshaft? Moved a cam two degrees? Timing two degrees? Different tires? Stage rpms? Shift points? Fuel curves, etc, etc, etc?

The intake modification(s) that was done to Jay's intake cost him TONS of power clear across the usable rpm range, and slowed his car down considerably. Cost the guy dyno time, and track time, and considerable aggrevation as well trying to figure out where all the power went.

You warned me above not to "go there".

IF I really went there on Jay's new engine, or if Jay did, you'd be OUT of the engine building business. I got the phone calls from Jay, and saw the pics as well, plus all of your correspondence back and forth with him.....so I know the whole deal. If you want to defend that engine build, I'd start with making it right with the guy who ended up with it...FWIW.

Back to the intake deal. Pontiac engines are equipped with relatively small cross section heads, and handicapped in terms of moving big amounts of air for big upper mid-range and top end power. When you use intakes, or modify intakes to KILL off tons of the great mid-range power they are capable of, it slows the car down considerably at the track.

If you raced a car like mine, or like Jay's, you would know that the engine only spends a micro-second at peak power in each gear during the run. The vehicle requires a broad power curve and tons of low and mid-range power to ET and MPH. Killing off low end, and mid-range, with a small shift in power to high rpms slows these cars down considerably, always has and always will......Cliff
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Old 04-12-11, 10:52AM   #21
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I'm not a racer. I am an engine builder FOR racers. I suppose Dirty Bird doesn't "count"? I designed that engine, and between Dave and I, it lived at 9,200 RPM over 40 passes. My responsibility is short block and valve train. Our pump gas engines are consistently quicker/faster than most. And even with those "junk" Eagle cranks, they outlive most, as well. Harping on me not having a car is backwards. MY customers NEVER have to worry if they're getting our "best" because they NEVER have to worry about racing against me.

There were issues surrounding Jay's engine and the "political" situation that are not for public consumption. Did I make a mistake? Yes. A couple, in fact. The "technical" mistake was to try to "save" his $2,500 crankshaft by modifying the pistons, instead. The other was aggreeing to try to "fit" aluminum rods in four days... Do I "own up" to it? Yes. Did I offer to set it straight? Yes. This is a forum for d-port heads. The issues with Jay and his engine were "after the fact" concerning heads.

Since you haven't "named the name", I can only assume you fabricated the "I've heard both sides" statement. Your ENTIRE post is evasive and diversionary. At least you're predictable.

I'm done here.

Jim
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Old 04-12-11, 11:50AM   #22
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Couple things here..... racing car does not the engine builder make! Ie. Bill cerrelli.. doesn't race to my knowledge and builds one he'll of a motor...chevies fords pontiacs, doesn't matter the brand. So saying jim doesn't have any credibility cause he doesn't race is silly.
I don't really know jays past motor issues or really care.. all engine builders make mistakes...im sure u have made a few urself cliff. Don't personally know u so don't know what kinda man u r.. its those willing to correct mistakes that r right in my book.... I do know jim and have seen him jump through major hoops at his expenses to fix problems....sometime when the aren't his fault. he did it to make the cust. Happy... there are also pain in the ass cust. That r just that...a pain in the ass. Again, don't know or care about the past issues but I find if hard to believe Jay was just thrown under the bus...
Is he ready to run this year? Has the car been dynoed and tuned? What did we make? Is he going to be faster this year? Made any changes to the car? That's what I want to know...his car being iron headed and all.... that is what the post is about right?
I will also confirm that the engine in the dirty bird was jims design and build....I could not have been happier with the way that motor took what was thrown at it.....the new owner is running the same main bearings it had in it last year after inspection...hard to argue with that fact.......
Now let's get back to iron head combos....might just go that route on my new toy..:-)
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Old 04-12-11, 02:20PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 494GOAT View Post
Peak Torque can be down and peak HP can be up.
That is true peak torque could be down and peak HP could be up.

But when I see range and 4000 RPM that implies to me averages. If the average torque over the range is down the average HP over that range must be down. That is not to say that there cannot be any area in the range where both torque and HP are up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan Weiss View Post
Jim,

How can it be down torque and up HP in the same range? Or do I not understand what you are saying.

Stan
Since I was not sure exactly what Jim was saying I asked for clarification.

Stan
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Old 04-12-11, 03:16PM   #24
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Scott, quite admirable to come to Jim's defense, but it doesn't change the facts here.

I never said that one MUST have a car to build engines, PLENTY of engine "builders" out there that put them together but don't even own a car that moves, etc.

If anyone plans on "calling me out" here, just keep in mind the following FACTS.

I test EVERYTHING, dyno and at the track, back to back runs. I own a car that runs the numbers, deadly consistant run to run. We sponsor and campain two other cars out of this shop that do the same thing. One runs 9.90's, the other high 11's with iron heads, street driven car. Compiling DIRECT information from these combo's "connects the dots" so we know for certain the things we are doing are going in the right direction.

Choosing cams and coming up with engine combo's that are never tested, aside doing a few decent burnouts in a hard right hand turn leaving Dairy Queen, leaves the engine builder to decide for himself if the combo really worked or not? If that is the only goal the customer and engine builder care about, then no doubt the project(s) are deemed a success at all levels.

Fact of the matter is, most folks are happy if their new engine makes it up and down the road, and pushes them back it the seat when they plant the accl pedal on the floor. If it can get to a car show or car cruise and not overheat or self destruct, then they can pick up the hood and show off their shiney parts, telling tales of 10 second runs at their last track outing. I run into those same folks at the track, BARELY getting into the 13's, with a hat FULL of excuses on that particular day why their junk is so slow!

With very few exceptions, I take all engines prepared here to the dyno, and then install them in cars that are raced, so we get to see ALL the results, and educate everyone involved at all levels. Never being content with anything, at the top of my personal list of objectives is to improve power production at every level, vehicle performance as well.

Sure, I've made PLENTY of mistakes, in many areas. Even so, I ALWAYS do my best to NOT leave room for folks to talk bad about me, so even when we screw things up, or come up short, steps are taken to make sure everyone involved is happy with the end result.

I'm directly involved with quite a few iron headed combinations, one of which holds the Pure Stock record (Pontiac powered), the other is close to owning the FAST record (again Pontiac powered). We even put together our own iron headed combination last year, as quite a few folks wanted to know if factory iron heads can manage pump fuel at relativley high compression ratios, and make as much as, or close to the power we are getting from our aluminum headed combo's. It's a work in progress, but so far doing quite well in all areas.

There is a LOT more to the Jay Delaigle story. If anything else is mentioned about that deal, it should come from those DIRECTLY involved with that particular project, and getting the engine correctly assembled, and back in service, etc......Cliff

PS: I got into this discussion mostly to mention the fact that the divider mod's to Jay's intake cost him a LOT of power. We're not talking a few ft lbs torque here with a slight HP gain at peak power. His engine LOST close to 40 ft lbs peak torque, and TONS of average power across the mid-range. Installed a full divider, and ALL the power came right back....

Last edited by Cliff R : 04-12-11 at 03:40PM.
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Old 04-12-11, 07:12PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Roberts View Post
Again, don't know or care about the past issues but I find if hard to believe Jay was just thrown under the bus...
Is he ready to run this year? Has the car been dynoed and tuned? What did we make? Is he going to be faster this year? Made any changes to the car? That's what I want to know...his car being iron headed and all.... that is what the post is about right?
Scott,

At this point I am not a FAST racer, just a FAST fan. Last years trouble left me with a $20K paper weight. I'm not a rich guy at all, so having an equal or faster piece in 6 mos was not in the cards. It took almost 3 years of saving $,racing,track testing, dynoing and trial and error to get that motor where it was at. I could write a book on the info that was compiled.

Yes, it is an iron headed combo (4x). I have run about 4 sets from different porters. One porter even told me he had made me 300 cfm(without a flow bench), when actually the best port in both heads was 264. Its tough to believe everything you are told. Its one of those "how do you know your daddys your daddy"? Cause your mama told you so! I guess when parts leave you sight you have to completely trust who you leave them with and in what you will be given back. Assume NOTHING.

For the record. Yes, I was given the chance to ship my motor back to be "fixed". But, at that point I had lost ALL faith in my builder. Turns out though, there was nothing to fix. After shipping the shortblock components off to their respective mfg for inspection...all were deemed junk. All this from just cycling the motor with the starter. Imagine if the motor had fired! Try to explain the above to your wife, friends, fellow racers etc. They all ask the same thing. WTF, how in the hell did that happen? Why did that motor leave the doors of any shop?

Anyhow, Scott, have we met? Are you the guy in the Norwalk video that lost his shoe in the VHT?
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Old 04-12-11, 07:34PM   #26
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Not looking for admiration here Cliff. im not here to defend Jim, he is a grown man and speak for his self. I am here speaking for myself and about my own observations. I mostly read posts and dont respond. I have been following ur post aswell as many others on several different boards. U do make some bold statements about many parts.... Comp cams for one. I have been running Comps for many years. in 97 i ran a 406 11.1 comp hydrolic roller and iron dports that ran 11 teens. shifted in the mid 6's That was a full bodied full interior 68 firebird , not some super light car. I drove the car to work several days a week....I have had good sucess with Comp, you have not... does that mean comps fall on their face before 6000rpm as you tend to profess based on all of ur "data"? What does ur aluminium headed 455 run? Maybe u should try a comp cam and let me tune it for u....Again, i dont know you Cliff but u do come off as arrogant as hell... Just cause you have one finding doesnt mean there arent others that are different. U tend to make hard line statements and basically saying thats how it is. Not true my friend. You just "bragged" about a high 11 sec combo that has iron dports.... Again, i had a true street car that ran almost a second faster some 13 years ago with probobly 50 less cubes. Dont break ur arm patting urself on the back to hard... Greg Miller runs pump gas, Pinball Dan ran pump gas....All faster then ur Ventura Cliff and very similar, infact, dans car was heavier.... Those are facts. After all, we r talking facts here. I read where you have tuned "thousands" of cars....Thats alot of tuning right there. Not sure i have seen thousands of hotrods in my life but its ur story, tell it anyway u want.... I believe Mount Vernon is the perfect place for you to be.... Birds of a feather my friend birds of a feather......I will go back to reading now....:-)
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Old 04-12-11, 07:37PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1qikta View Post
Scott,

At this point I am not a FAST racer, just a FAST fan. Last years trouble left me with a $20K paper weight. I'm not a rich guy at all, so having an equal or faster piece in 6 mos was not in the cards. It took almost 3 years of saving $,racing,track testing, dynoing and trial and error to get that motor where it was at. I could write a book on the info that was compiled.

Yes, it is an iron headed combo (4x). I have run about 4 sets from different porters. One porter even told me he had made me 300 cfm(without a flow bench), when actually the best port in both heads was 264. Its tough to believe everything you are told. Its one of those "how do you know your daddys your daddy"? Cause your mama told you so! I guess when parts leave you sight you have to completely trust who you leave them with and in what you will be given back. Assume NOTHING.

For the record. Yes, I was given the chance to ship my motor back to be "fixed". But, at that point I had lost ALL faith in my builder. Turns out though, there was nothing to fix. After shipping the shortblock components off to their respective mfg for inspection...all were deemed junk. All this from just cycling the motor with the starter. Imagine if the motor had fired! Try to explain the above to your wife, friends, fellow racers etc. They all ask the same thing. WTF, how in the hell did that happen? Why did that motor leave the doors of any shop?

Anyhow, Scott, have we met? Are you the guy in the Norwalk video that lost his shoe in the VHT?
lol...Good lord no! That fat ass is Bob from All Pontiac... We have not met. I do love your car though and have followed most of ur posts in regards to FAST class racing.
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Old 04-12-11, 11:32PM   #28
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"I have had good sucess with Comp, you have not... BLAH, BLAH, BLAH."

Scott, if you are going to follow me around on the boards and take a shot at busting may balls some, at least gets your facts straight.

I don't make "bold" statements about anything, not my style. I just post facts based on direct testing, lots of it. From what I've seen, it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE to find shortcomings in any particular part, or line of parts without some guy that's never tested anything or even have a car that moves getting his ars all in an uproar cause you talked bad about some type of carb, or cam, that he used many years before he decided to glue himself to his easy chair and spend the better part of his adult life surfing the NET to find fault with the accomplishments of others.

Anyhow, here are the facts. I am currently running a Comp Cam in my engine, and had one in my last 455. Both are HR's. To date we have NEVER on one occassion had any problems with any roller cam from Comp, and will continue to use them.

The Comp Cams we continue to see problems with, are the XE flat cams. They pushed the limits of opening/closing velocities just a bit too far, and there are a lot of documented problems associated with them.

I have never once extended my comments beyond the XE flat lobes, other than one custom grind using their better XTQ lobes that failed miserably on the dyno in back to back testing.

I've raced my car all over the place, and attended a few Pontiac events, fastest street car stuff, etc, etc. I can easily put together a faster combination, and have done so with a few of the cars we put together that race out of this shop. One runs 9.90's over 136mph and is nothing more than a warmed over street car, 3.73 gears, TH350, shelf TCI 10" converter, 505cid with a near stock set of high port heads and solid roller cam. That sort of stuff is easy.

Building a daily driver with a smooth idle, stock intake, q-jet, stock HEI distributor, tight 10" converter and 3.42 gears, running a quiet full exhaust system, than runs nearly into the 10's over 120mph, not quite so easy. Sure, my car certainly isn't the fastest pump gas street car out there, never claimed it was, but you will not find too many running in a milder state of tune running as fast......Cliff

Last edited by Cliff R : 04-12-11 at 11:50PM.
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Old 04-12-11, 11:55PM   #29
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"Try to explain the above to your wife, friends, fellow racers etc....etc....etc"

Jay, I've met your wife, and I'm scared of her. That must have been the hardest part of all, telling her the deal? You are lucky she didn't kick your ars and throw your car out on the curb with a for sale sign in it! Wouldn't have surprised me one bit if you had to sleep in your car for a while!....LOL....Cliff
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Old 04-13-11, 01:38AM   #30
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Oh NEATO, we get our own Dport section and the posts turn to CV1ish type bitching/whining in the first couple of days. I couldn't be prouder of you guys!
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